China In Your Plans

Susannah: Hello, and welcome to Switch your Money On from Hargreaves Lansdown. I’m Susannah Streeter, I’m the senior investment and markets analyst at Hargreaves Lansdown. And I’m here with Sarah Coles, our senior personal finance analyst.

Now I don’t know about you but most of my new year’s resolutions were flung out of the window in mid-January – so chocolate, cheese and alcohol are back in the house –and I have spent more time in the pub rather than the gym over the weekend - but we have just had another chance to renew those commitments to healthier living – because we’ve just passed the start of the Chinese New Year. 

Sarah: Yes, although Chinese New Year is always celebrated with a banquet in our house, which probably isn’t the healthiest start. It’s the year of the Tiger this year. I was born in the year of the Tiger, so I’m always keen to believe the best things come from these years. Us Tigers are supposed to be up for a challenge, so I’m delighted that we’re tackling a huge topic in the podcast this time.

Susannah: Yes, in this episode we’re focusing on China – the world’s second largest economy – and the opportunities and challenges the Greater China region presents for companies and investors in an Episode we’re calling ‘China in Your Plans’. 

We are going to find out first-hand what it’s like doing business in the country – with Carl Hunter - the Chairman of manufacturing company - Coltraco Ultrasonics - which manufactures testing and monitoring systems – Hello Carl – so as part of your export innovation strategy – China is a key market – looking forward to hearing about your experiences.

Carl: It’s a delight to be here and yes, China is a key market really in our overall Asia strategy. 

Sarah: We look forward to finding out more later in the podcast. We’ll also chat to Sophie Lund-Yates, our senior equity analyst at HL – who’s been delving into the prospects for some big names listed on the stock market, when it comes to importing from and exporting to China

Susannah: And we’ll hear from our head of investment analysis and research Emma Wall – who’s been talking to Dale Nicholls, manager of the Fidelity China Special Situations Trust. 

Sarah: But before we get stuck into the Chinese market, we’ll start a bit closer to home, looking at the cost-of-living crisis. We’ve had fair bit news on this front, both from an eyewatering 54% rise in the energy price cap in April, and   a rise in interest rates

The Homeowners on variable rates linked to the Bank of England base rate – will see their monthly payments rise again as the Bank of England raised rates to 0.5%. The good news is that most are protected with a fixed rate mortgage – currently nearly three quarters of the mortgage market is fixed and for the past few years, those taking our new variable mortgages have been the exception to the rule. So, the pain won’t be immediate for everyone. On the flip side, if the rates continue upwards over the rest of 2022, it means that despite the Bank of England’s efforts to raise rates gradually, when people come to re-mortgage, they could see a real step up in their monthly payments

Susannah: Yes, this is still ultra-low by historic standards…thirty years ago – the base rate was at 10%. Then a succession of crises led to this era of ultra-cheap money – first the financial crisis, then after the vote for Brexit and finally the pandemic, which saw them hit a record low of 0.1%.

Sarah: The old rule of what goes down must go up applies, so it was always a question of when they would rise – rather than ‘if’. The question now on people’s minds is where they will go from here. There’s a risk that the lifting of the energy price cap causes a big rise in inflation in April, which sparks another rate rise.

Susannah: Yes, and it’s also worth looking at the labour market – because it’s not just that the jobs market is booming – with vacancies at record levels of 1.2 million - wages are also rising – they might not be as fast as the headline inflation rate – which doesn’t make people feel better off – but take-home pay has accelerated. 

Sarah: all this points to expectations that the inflation rate will rise to at least 7.25% in April. It’s a bit of a difference isn’t it to the headline rate of inflation reported in China.

Susannah: Yes, in China the rate of inflation is falling. In December prices were rising 1.5% year on year, whereas in November they were increasing by 2.3% year on year.  that’s partly because of the re-imposition of lockdown measures in some regions as Omicron spread – but also efforts the government made in securing supplies of popular products like pork which had seen prices rise sharply.

Sarah: While other central banks are set to raise rates further – China’s actually cutting rates to try and stimulate the economy. China’s growth slowed to 4%, the lowest rate in 18 months during the last three months – as challenges mount up. And it’s not only the fresh restrictions being imposed that is putting the brakes on growth.

Susannah: Yes, there has been a wave of defaults across the property sector, linked to the woes of the giant group Evergrande, which is undergoing what is likely to be the biggest restructuring in Chinese history.  It’s led to prized assets in Evergrande’s empire being seized by creditors – concerns are ongoing about what other ripples effects there will be across the economy.

Sarah: the problems in the property sector owe a great deal to China’s ‘common prosperity’ agenda. It aims to reduce inequality and narrow the gap between the rich and poor, and in order to do so it has been tackling the property sector,  because rising house prices were a major source of inequality. 

It has clamped down on borrowing - both within the sector and for households hoping to buy, and as a result it has precipitated a crisis in real estate. This is unlikely to be the end of the policy initiatives, which could cause real disruption in the short term though – this happened last year when the authorities put the brakes on private education companies. The idea was to help bridge the gap between those families who could afford extra tuition and those who couldn’t, but it also meant education companies could no longer make profits.

Susannah: Even so, despite the short-term issues- the region is often deemed the future engine of global growth. China made up 15% of the broader emerging stock market back in 2008, but has since reached around one third. A catalyst for this change has been the gradual opening of China’s stock markets to foreign investors. All of this means an increasing number of China-focused funds have launched over the past decade, and many investors have upped their allocations to the world’s most populous country. So, what is it like doing business right now – not least with so many potential pressures weighing on the economy?

Sarah: Time to bring back in Carl Hunter - the Chairman of manufacturing company - Coltraco Ultrasonics - which manufactures testing and monitoring systems. So, Carl, how long have you been exporting to China?

Carl: Broadly, just in excess of 20 years and it’s a key part of our overall export strategy to Asia and we export probably 40% of our advanced manufacturing to Asia Pacific generally, and China’s a key part of that. 

Susannah: Tell me, well are your products used?

Carl: Across a variety of high hazard market sectors, such as shipping, offshore wind, offshore oil and gas, nuclear power, conventional power, electricity, grid systems, data centres, and we’re very proud of the work we do with the Royal Navy in the fields of damage control.

Susannah: And are you seeing that your products are becoming increasingly in demand across greater China? And in what areas or greater China do you do the most business?

Carl: For me, China in my mind has become 2 countries in trading terms. You’ll have that part of the economy that is going for what I think President Xi calls general circulation, very much wedded to Chinese state-owned providers. And then you have the more global, outward looking companies that are tying themselves to Western standards. So, for me the market’s much more specific to those companies that are outward looking than those that are inward looking.

Susannah: And are you seeing, or have you seen over the last few years and increase in red tape or requirements needed by authorities, compared to other markets? Given for example, we’ve highlighted already some of the extra requirements put on certain sectors.

Carl: We have and we haven’t. What we’ve seen is different cycles and different ways, so we’ve seen China reach out to try to form sensible partnerships and then others we’ve seen slightly more one-sided. We’ve seen a very powerful anti-corruption drive a few years ago that was very effective in controlling business from the propriety and ethics perspective, and then we’ve seen that dampen in last couple of years. So, for me, it’s been a cyclical approach to how China wishes to engage in international trade, with a constant backdrop of course, of investments in sensitive sectors and behind that, the maritime and indeed the Land, Belt and Road Initiative that sometimes can appear like an attempt to create an alternative trading system, which is counterproductive in terms of integration into the global trading community. Largely speaking, because the ports of the worlds exist for geographical reasons, so trying to create something that’s alternative to them except in a digital space for me, seems to offer more challenge than opportunity.

Susannah: It must be such a challenge when the rules and regulations do go in this kind of circular movement, waxing and waning. How do you deal with that? 

Carl: For UK business as a whole to become, let’s say better, faster, cheaper in global markets. People often forget that from a manufacturing perspective and the regulatory perspective in services. One has to not only cope with one’s own national standards to succeed in one’s own domestic market, but to succeed in overseas export markets, one has to succeed in their certification regimes as well. China is driving hard to impose its own standards. The problem is that conflicts with the origins of, let’s say UK standards, which have been heavily predicated on engineering and technical and safety sanity overall, and are not being used to advantage British trade, they’re being designed to make for a safer world. So, if China wishes to come in and influence its own certification, it may well enhance the opportunities for domestic manufacturers who are selling to state-owned companies in China. But it’s less clear to me how that is going to help them integrate with the global trading system overall.

Sarah: So, have you seen increased competition from Chinese competitors?

Carl: We have indeed, we’ve seen a lot of it. Sadly, I see very little invention and I see a lot of replication. You cannot work in high hazard asset-intense sectors like the nuclear industry or shipping or advance warship design – you cannot do that where bottom pricing is your key determinant of your design. To design excellent needs to be almost an example of practical scholarship in advanced manufacturing terms – and if you match advanced manufacturing to high exporting as we do, then the basis of that is doing truthful science that is almost at a scholarship level academically, and then manufacturing that at a level of equivalence to what I call ‘practical scholarship’. You’re not going to make a better world if you don’t do your best. For China to play its fulsome part in international trade as a reliable partner, it has to appreciate that taking a concept and trying to make it just as cheap as it can, is not the way to make a better world. All that will do is force companies like us to make our instruments and systems better than they’ve ever been before. 

Susannah: So, it seems to me you’ve had your fair share of intellectual property challenges, but as a result have you become more agile?

Carl: We’re actually one of the very few British companies to have take 4 intellectual property theft cases and succeeded in the Beijing courts. I was absolutely astonished, and I have to give credit here to the Beijing courts for their transparency and openness. We won 2 and lost 2 in the first year, we went back on appeal 6 months later due to an amazing lady, a Chinese lawyer and a year later we won those 2 as well. That gave me personally tremendous hope that the happy experiences I’ve had travelling across major Chinese cities over the last 20 years, that really there is hope, that despite the criticisms I make, I also can point to some outstanding people who want China to be in the right place, in the right world that we all want really. 

Sarah: And of course, more recently I know one of the other challenges of working in China is the supply chain issues. So, have you come across anything like this, like the port snarl ups?

Carl: It’s not the port snarl ups that worried me because we took a decision way back on 11 March 2020 to shift entirely out of ships, to freight our exports and to go by air. The snarl ups are in a different way. Covid-19 has hit the world economy, so if you imagine a static piece of metal and take an enormous mallet to it, the reverberations to that are unforeseen. The reverberations of that shock that happened in March 2020 are still being felt, so for planning purposes, going back April-May 2020, we were forecasting that the global markets themselves and global supply chains are going to remain in a state of considerable disturbance for yet another year, possibly December 2022 earliest. That means components for instance that were on overnight availability are now on 64-week lead times. That’s therefore for me, not a shipping problem, it’s a global supply chain one.

Susannah: And do you think that’s why we’re seeing more companies switch to onshoring, bringing manufacturing closer to home, rather than looking at cheaper manufacturing sites overseas, in particular in China?

Carl: I think that’s one of the most fascinating questions I’ve been asked all year! If we keep thinking that we will get better by just seeking the cheapest manufacturing place on earth, what we seem to be forgetting is that we’re also the accessing the cheapest workers on earth. And yet surely, we realise that the value of a human being is higher than the lowest labour rate that we can find for it. So, for me, there’s an issue of re-shoring for strategic purposes and since trade and finance are now at the heart of British foreign policy, for instance, in the integrated review, the foreign policy published last year. It seems to me that this is an extraordinary opportunity of hope, particularly for young people, but for any age of people in our country that wish to change careers, because this is the moment to realise that your routes in the industrial revolution when you map science to reaching global markets by making things that were excellent. This is a moment for us to do it all again. So re-shoring, Yes. But for a slightly nuanced set of reasons in addition to your fine point that you make.

Sarah: Very positive not to finish there, in general can you tell us how optimistic you are about growth opportunities in China?

Carl: I am optimistic, but I have to say that I am more optimistic about the wider Asia Pacific region now. In the wider Asia Pacific region, we have hosts of just dynamic, growth-filled companies that really want to engage with the United Kingdom and the US at a level I’ve never seen in 30 years of doing business. To your question specifically, of course we wish to continue to engage with China – all we desire is a slightly more level playing field in relation to how we can compete there. I really do encourage them to go back to that anti-corruption drive that was so successful a couple of years ago, because that’s the real China, not the one that can sometimes allow its players to operate in alternative ways. So, yes, I’m optimistic overall but I am very aware that it’s not just a competitive landscape now, it’s a contested landscape. And where I’m talking about that is in the rules-based international order, that cascades all the way through to business rules and protocols.

Susannah: It really has been fascinating Carl, and it will be really interesting to see how all of these themes develop over the next few years, so thanks very much.

Carl: You have delighted me also. As to your new year’s resolutions, don’t be too harsh on yourself, take care everybody, it’s been very lovely to talk to you all.

Susannah: Well, thank you Carl, it’s really been fascinating to have your insights and thanks for those best wishes. let me bring in Sophie our senior equity analyst – one of the big issues in the market at the moment is with the supply chain and the interruptions caused by the pandemic. It has hard far-reaching implications hasn’t it?

Sophie: The obvious one to talk about here is Apple. Unlike a lot of tech companies which are essentially software based, whereas you think of Microsoft, Amazon’s increasing web services division, Netflix, things like that. Apple is heavily reliant on physical products, and therefore supply chains are far more important because there’s a lot of physical components. Its supply chains are predominately reliant on Asia, meaning any disruption in the region, especially China will have an effect on Apple’s ability to deliver. Now I do have to say that its latest set of results from the end of January show that it’s navigating current worldwide supply chain disruption remarkably well, with record sales and profits. It managed $124bn in quarterly net sales, which is just hard to wrap your head round. Those impressive results allowed it to shrug off some of the negative tech that’s been ripping through markets, particularly the Nasdaq. The initial reaction to those results at the end of January saw the shares rise. Of course, this is an incredibly dynamic situation at the moment. I think that there could be some further pain there and a more abrupt tilt away from growth stocks would likely hurt apple in the short run. But when we’re talking about its ability to manage supply chains in particular, that is absolutely fundamental for Apple because its operating model relies on an incredibly short production cycle, as competition in the hardware space – by that I mean its laptops, its phones, its accessories - is so competitive out there at the moment. And keeping Apple’s new models flying off the shelves relies on it making customers feel like they must have the latest model. This is working for now, no doubt about that. A driving force of success is, you’ve guessed it, China. Net sales in the region rose over 20% last quarter, and is a huge area of growth potential, if it can keep taking on rivals in the region. 

Susannah: Now we’ve talked already in this podcast about China’s growth and the slowing of it recently. And of course, commodities are extremely sensitive to that aren’t they?

Sophie: They absolutely are, I won’t harp on about this one too much as I covered them a few episodes back when we were talking about our 5 shares to watch for this year. But we can’t really talk about China and demand/supply without talking about commodities.  Anglo American is who I’m talking about here, so a giant miner and is responsible for industrial materials, including things like iron ore and coal. So unsurprisingly, when global economies are growing, demand for those materials goes through the roof. So, China has a direct impact on the likes of Anglo because as we all know it’s a rapidly growing region. The thing I like about Anglo though is that it also has exposure to some consumer, i.e. non-government reliant demand, materials like copper and other metals. This adds a bit of a buffer when industrial demand isn’t flying so high. With that said, I am mindful that miners are benefitting from high material prices at the moment, and that’s great news, but investors should be mindful that commodity prices are cyclical meaning they move a lot and go up and down with the wider economy. 

Susannah: I suppose in many ways it’s a similar situation with consumer goods which can fluctuate depending on consumer sentiment and is that true, for example when we’re talking about China?

Sophie: So, we absolutely associate talking about China with booming demand, but there are some areas where squeezing growth out the Chinese market is more challenging. Carl was touching on that, albeit for a very different product base. KitKat maker Nestle relies on China as an important pillar of its Asia, Oceania and Africa division, which accounted for just over 15bnCHF in the first nine months of the financial year. But growth is being held back by its infant nutrition (think formula) in China. A large reason for this is lower birth rates in the context of the pandemic. On a longer-term note, the region remains a good growth lever, especially when you consider brands like Purina Pet Care which is doing well.

Susannah: Interesting the pet boom is taking place all the way round the world it seems at the moment.

Sophie: I’m certainly one of the people that decided to get a dog during lockdown.

Susannah: Are you enjoying it – keeping the pets busy?

Sophie: I love him to pieces but it’s not easy and the vet bills are enormous.

Sarah: Thanks Sophie. Now I’d like to bring in Emma Wall, our head of investment research and analysis here at Hargreaves Lansdown who has been speaking to Dale Nicholls, manager of the Fidelity China Special Situations Trust.

Emma: Hi Dale

Dale: Hi Emma, how are you?

Emma: I’m very well thanks, happy lunar new year! Now, you’re speaking to us from Asia where markets have been interesting for the last 12 months due to various headwinds. I thought we could start by recapping on how things were in the last 12 months because, unlike areas such as the US and a number of major markets in the west, Asian markets and in particular China didn’t perform as well in the last 12 months, did they?

Dale: No absolutely, huge divergence really, particularly in China.

Emma: What were the causes of that?

Dale: Clearly, sort of divergent policy. I don’t think there’s been as much economic stimulus is one factor, but I think the bigger factor really is around regulation. So, we’ve had a lot of new regulation that’s come in. I put it into 3 broad buckets, the anti-competitive or anti-trust type regulation that’s focused on the big internet platforms, new rules around data, particularly security and privacy – some elements of that I think touching on data sovereignty as well, and then the other areas that are really focused on dealing with increased social inequality. Sou you’ve probably heard about the 3 mountains, focused on poverty, education and healthcare.

Emma: And how do you as a professional investor, unpick what that means for individual equities? Because presumably you’re able to see through some of this and still find some good opportunities within the market – must be tough.

Dale: There’s a few key things. One is to keep the long-term view, and I say that looking back and looking forward. So, looking back we’ve definitely had these regulatory waves before, but this is clearly the deepest and longest that we’ve had. It seems like it’s waning somewhat when we think about what could come next, it seems like the noise we hear of late is more about the implementation of par strafe policies.  And again, we think about what could come next and it’s hard to imagine the next 6 months being as intense as the last 6-12. We see some elements, potentially more control around entertainment content, particularly a little bit more regulation maybe on tertiary education, but again it’s hard to imagine it being as intense. And again, when we’re focusing on the long-term, the government still has pretty ambitious goals around economic development and innovation in general. So, to achieve goals, definitely need a strong private sector. As per previous cycles, we think there’s a good chance that things will be less intense going forward and so actually from a risk-reward perspective, for stocks things are stacking up pretty well, with still I think quite a bit of fear out there, driving stocks down and we’ve got really significant discounts in China vs global peers. And maybe the final point on regulation, a lot of this, the regulation that we’re seeing, are challenges that are facing many countries globally – areas like social inequality, reigning in big tech, data control, dealing with security and privacy. But, obviously in China they can act pretty swiftly so the fact that a lot of that is hopefully behind us I think sets us up reasonably well from a risk-reward perspective when we’re looking at markets.

Emma: And we of course cannot have a fund manager conversation, regardless of who I’m talking to if they invest in the US, in the UK, in Asia, in Latin America - we’ve got to have the Covid conversation. Because the way that each government and each region has responded to Covid in the restrictions they’ve implemented, has obviously affected the economy and indeed the stock market. So, what is the current policy in China and how is that impacting investment opportunities/

Dale: Yes, it clearly is an issue and I think it has definitely impacted growth, particularly in the second half last year – as you know the policy in China is one of zero tolerance. So, when you do see a flare up, no matter how small it is, there is a lockdown in that area, and that clearly impacts growth. The movement in PMI’s that you’ve seen really over the last 12 months, the variability on that I think in many cases reflects the lockdowns we’ve seen. Obviously, you’ve heard about what’s happened in Xi’an and places like that Schengen as well, so I would still cite that policy as a risk factor in terms of growth looking forward. It’s hard to see a really strong recovery, this can limit growth somewhat. Having said all that, I think there’s been a clear policy change from the Central Economic Work Conference in December, that’s really focused on growth so, I think you’ll see more stimulus going forward, we’ve already seen some move on the monetary side in terms of cutting prime rates and cutting reserve rate requirements. I think you’ll see more of that as well which is obviously interesting in a global context when you’re seeing a lot of other economies actually tighten, so I think that divergence is interesting for markets as well, even with growth potentially in general, it will be tough to surprise on the outside, but I think in terms of an increase of stimulus in government policy that’s supportive – I think that could be positive for markets.

Emma: And, presumably also let’s not forget when the market is depressed, that presents buy opportunities for someone like you who is focused on the long-term, because obviously nothing is guaranteed but for a contrarian investor, they look for these pullbacks, they look for these moments when the market is depressed.

Dale: Absolutely, like I said – particularly those areas that have been the real focus as part of regulation have been significantly sold off, so when you look at the market overall, it’s valuation to the US – where we look mostly when we’re doing that comparison of market valuations, that gap in valuation is the widest it’s really been in some time. But you think about the sectors that have been in focus like particularly the tech sector, you’ve got really wide gaps there, if you think about the bigger tech companies in China relative to their global peers, you’re looking at in some cases 78% type discounts. So, I think that’s where things have opened up the most and not surprisingly that’s probably the area I’m spending the most time on, just from a risk-reward perspective – those areas that are more in some ways the eye of the storm are representing the most opportunity. So, definitely areas like tech, even property – obviously that’s an area that’s under pressure as well and I think, driving part of the slowdown towards the end of last year and we’re in a process now where we’re dealing with the likes of Evergrande, and it’s creating a lot of negative sentiment. This is an area that had seen tightening policy really over the last couple of years so really there’s a lot of policy scope to loosen, increasing incentives to do that which again, should be positive for the stocks in that space. 

Emma: Dale, thanks very much and enjoy the rest of the holiday.

Dale: Thanks Emma, good to chat.

Susannah: Emma Wall our head of investment research and analysis at Hargreaves Lansdown there, talking to Dale Nicholls, manager of the Fidelity China Special Situations Trust. Please bear in mind that these are the views of the fund manager and are not individual stock recommendations. You’re listening to Switch Your Money On from Hargreaves Lansdown.

Sarah: And finally, it’s time for the quiz, and Susannah tells me she has been trawling through the weird and wonderful world of international trade, and putting together more of her impressively difficult questions on imports and exports. I have to say unless it’s about the impressive level of shopping my kids do on Alibaba, I may not be on for a great result.  

Susannah: I’m afraid it’s not on the list, but good luck anyway. OK. Your first question is about exports from the UK. There are five categories where the UK is the biggest exporter in the world, but which of these are real, and which one is a red herring: is it hard liquor, antiques, brochures or tartan?

Sarah: Oh, blimey. The whisky market makes liquor likely, and I can well believe we’re clearing out our lofts fast enough to compete on the antiques front, but I’m not sure about the other two. Who on earth would be exporting either in big quantities? So I’ll say brochures is the red herring.

Susannah: I’m afraid not.  We are apparently big in the brochures world, and export $2.45 billion worth of them. The other two the UK leads in is stainless steel ingots and railroad ties. So tartan was your red herring. Now, sticking with the UK, crude petroleum is among the top five imports by value and it’s in the top five exports too, but do you think we import more or export more of it?

Sarah: Surely. I should be able to get this right with a 50:50 chance. It feels like something we import more.

Susannah: Yes, you’re right. We import $23.3 billion worth and export $22.6 billion, so it’s fairly finely balanced. Now, after crude petroleum, cars are the second most traded product in the world. You won’t be surprised to hear that the top exported is Germany, second is Japan and third is the US, but what is the fourth?

Sarah: Oh, you’ve named all the ones that spring to mind. I don’t suppose it’s the UK is it?

Susannah: No, it’s Mexico, and then Canada. The UK was actually the third biggest importer of cars – after the US and Germany. Right, so let’s have some quickfire questions, I’ll give you type of food and you tell me the world’s biggest exporter. So first, yogurt.

Sarah: No idea, it feels like it should be Skandinavian, so Sweden.

Susannah: No, it’s Germany, which actually exports more than a quarter of all yogurt. Sweden doesn’t make the top ten, but the UK is at number 8.

Susannah: Right, next Spinach.

Sarah: That must be somewhere huge with a massive agricultural sector, so I’ll say Brazil.

Susannah: Sorry, no it’s the US – which produces a quarter of all spinach for export. Brazil isn’t on the list, but the UK is number 14. 

And finally, turkey meat.

Sarah: This feels like it should be the US, as well – although every part of me wants to guess at Turkey.

Susannah: I’m afraid it’s neither of them. It’s Poland, which produces more than a quarter of all turkey meat for export. The UK comes in at number 11.

Sarah: I imagine we’re probably the top exporter of odd, breaded turkey products – my kids seem to have an odd obsession with turkey in the shape of a dinosaur -which is all very normal.

Susannah: It sounds like you’ve really embraced heathy eating this year. Well, your food export knowledge let you down here, and I’m afraid it’s another quiz where you managed one correct answer, but it’s better than nothing.

That’s all from us this time, but before we go, we need to remind you that this was recorded on 4 February, and all information was correct at the time of recording.

Sarah: Nothing in this podcast is personal advice – you should seek advice if you’re not sure what’s right for you. Investments rise and fall in value, so you could get back less than you invest. Past performance isn’t a guide to the future.

Susannah: Yes, this is not advice or a recommendation to buy, sell or hold any investment. No view is given on the present or future value or price of any investment, and investors should form their own view on any proposed investment.

Sarah: And this hasn’t been prepared in accordance with legal requirements designed to promote the independence of investment research and is considered a marketing communication.

Susannah: Non-independent research is not subject to FCA rules prohibiting dealing ahead of research, however HL has put controls in place (including dealing restrictions, physical and information barriers) to manage potential conflicts of interest presented by such dealing. 

Sarah: You can see our full non-independent research disclosure on our website for more information. So, all that’s left is for me to thank our guests Carl, Sophie, Emma and Dale, and our producer Elizabeth Hotson.