Track and yield: How Alphabet, Apple, and Nike are changing the wellness industry

SUSANNAH: Hello, and welcome to this Switch Your Money On podcast with me, Susannah Streeter – Head of Money and Markets.

SARAH: And me – Sarah Coles – Head of Personal Finance – here at Hargreaves Lansdown.

Now, we’re hearing that a lot of you are listening to this on the move – so that’s in the car – in the garden – on a dog walk – or even on a treadmill somewhere.

SUSANNAH: If you’re a gym bunny – into the latest health and fitness trends – or just interested in how AI might revolutionise the wellness industry in the coming years, stay tuned as this podcast is going to do all the heavy lifting for you, and shed light on the trends in the sector in an episode we’re calling ‘Track and Yield.’

SARAH: Yes, we’ll crunch the apps with Matt Britzman to find out what kind of extra muscle AI could add to the way we look after our bodies.

SUSANNAH: And we’re going to be speaking to a company dealing with all of this disruption right now, and that is ‘Wattbike,’ and I’m very pleased to say, Duncan Bradley – he’s the Chief Product and Brand Officer – is with us now. Duncan, how excited are you about the trends ahead?

DUNCAN: Hi there – thanks for having me on. Yes – really exciting time. Obviously, COVID has really pushed forward health and fitness – and particularly on the digital – so we’re really looking forward to pushing forward with personalised fitness – it’s a really exciting time to be in the industry at the moment.

SUSANNAH: Looking forward to hearing a lot more about the personalised fitness side of things in a few moments – and, in fact, we’re gonna be taking a sprint around three other companies in this space with Sophie Lund-Yates, and we’ll get a Fund Manager’s perspective later with Emma Wall.

SARAH: And, if you’re listening to this while running, we will, as usual, keep this fast-paced, so you need to be on your toes to keep up with everything going on in markets and the world of personal finance right now.

SUSANNAH: You certainly do – where interest rates are heading still seems to be a driver of investors’ sentiment around the world. Meanwhile, the enthusiasm for all things AI has also helped drive tech stocks on Wall Street higher in the first half of the year.

SARAH: And then – over in the personal finance world – we’ve seen mortgage rates reach eye-watering levels and push even above the highs we saw in the wake of the mini budget. So, for anyone remortgaging right now, it’s certainly an intense mental workout given how quickly the market seems to be changing. It’s a reminder to complete your financial wellbeing check and trim out any of those extra debits lingering in your bank statements that you no longer need, especially if you really can’t afford them at the moment.

SUSANNAH: That brings us nicely, Sarah, to Wellbeing and Fitness – the focus of the pod today – and it’s fair to say there has already been a revolution in fitness – brought on by the pandemic. I wonder how many of our listeners joined me in tuning in to Joe Wick’s Daily Workouts during lockdowns – Sarah?

SARAH: Not a big fan – no – I have to say. I did watch a few – didn’t actually join in.

SUSANNAH: Some of those habits – of working out in virtual classes at home – have stuck, whereas others have fallen by the wayside. I’ve gone back to the gym instead of thumping the floor of the lounge. A big change for me, though, in recent years is monitoring my activity more. I am a big fan of the steps counter on my fitness watch. For years, I’ve felt that there was zero record for the amount of housework and running around after three children I’ve had to do, but now it’s all there recorded on the app.

SARAH: Yes – as long as you remember to actually put it on – or remember where you left it – ‘cause, presumably, with three children in the house, no-one ever knows where they’ve left anything.

SUSANNAH: Aha – but that’s where the handy locator finder apps come in, don’t they?

SARAH: Well, yes – obviously! – that’s entirely what they were designed for – but you might have thought the way we monitor our fitness has already been revolutionised enough, but it seems we may have entered a brave new world with big tech getting in on the act to ultra-finetune our efforts. Apple is reported to be planning an AI-powered health coaching service as part of the techs giants’ push into health and fitness services – and that’s as part of its iOS 17 – the upcoming new operating system for the iPhone. So, the idea is it’ll harness the power of artificial intelligence to improve how we exercise, and how we eat and sleep.

SUSANNAH: When it comes to meditation, there’s already been a surge in apps helping us achieve a more zen-like existence, with industry data from Statista showing revenue in the Meditation Apps segment is projected to reach $4.64bn this year. Over the next four years, revenue is expected to grow by 11% annually.

SARAH: So, let’s find out more about how digitisation and artificial intelligence could be set to be an even bigger changer for the fitness and wellness sectors with our Investment Analyst, Matt Britzman, who’s been delving into all things AI. So, Matt, what’s your take on this?

MATT: Thanks for having me back, Sarah – it almost feels like we can’t discuss any industry at the minute without the mention of AI. Of course, ChatGPT and Large Language Models like that kind of kicked off the mass enthusiasm for AI – it seems like now the race is on to build new services and products that are leveraging that kind of exciting technology. Apple – as you just mentioned – being a prime example of that – but I think it’s important that we don’t just put all AI into one bucket here. Large Language Models like ChatGPT would be an obvious place to start – arguably, already causing some disruption to the fitness industry.

I can go online and – with a couple of sentences – have a tailored gym routine made for me – a diet plan that builds in the kinds of foods I like and don’t like. So, I think the industry – as a whole – needs to adapt and evolve if it’s gonna keep pace.

SUSANNAH: I suppose that is the real question then, Matt – ‘What can businesses and the wider industry do to keep consumers paying for services?’

MATT: That’s pretty much the million-dollar question. I think the answer lies in some of the other areas where we’re seeing advancements that, perhaps, you and I can’t access so easily by flicking on a website. You mentioned the Step Tracker earlier. I wear my Fitbit pretty much religiously these days, and I’m definitely not alone in that.

The market for wearable fitness tech is massive – it’s expected to reach around $100bn in a few years’ time. I think about my Fitbit right now – it tracks my sleep, my heart rate – I can add what I eat on the app. The amount of data that these wearables are collecting is frankly mind-blowing, and companies are getting better and better at being able to analyse those large datasets by using AI and the new tools that we’re getting in the industry. Of course – for the makers of the fitness watches themselves – it’s a lucrative business – but, where I also see some massive scope is for companies and app developers who can leverage that data to create new and exciting products too.

SARAH: So, thinking about the traditional gym sector, this has to be something that they’re thinking about as a potential disruptor – right?

MATT: Yeah – I think, really, it’s a case of ‘Evolve or be left behind’ in that regard. The pandemic already accelerated the trend of working from home – as Duncan eluded to earlier – and our personalised workouts-something everyone can have through an app for the cost of a coffee a week, and that’s a trend I don’t expect to see reverse from here.

That said, there’s always going to be a big cohort that enjoy the gym experience, and that’s one of the things that you can’t really replicate easily from home – you know, the buzz of having people working out around you, and looking over and seeing someone lifting more weights than you, and that pushes you to do more.

I think – for gyms – it’s gonna be about integrating new equipment, and having their fitness teams learn to work alongside the technology to offer results that you can’t get from an app alone.

SUSANNAH: As we know, Matt, working out is just one part of staying fit and healthy. It’s no good running around the block if you’re just about to go and eat a massive packet of crisps, after all. So, nutrition is, arguably, the more important factor – are we seeing any adoption of AI in the food space?

MATT: Yes – spot on there. Unfortunately, ‘Abs are made in the kitchen,’ as they say – we probably all wish that they weren’t. So, it’s a space ripe for innovation and – if we take a basic example of tracking what we eat – there’s already plenty of apps that allow you to do this – some even allow you to take pictures of barcodes or food items to log them automatically.

Now, I like to think about what the next level of that might look like – you know, think about being able to take a photo of your roast dinner and have the app pull up all the nutritional elements for each item on the plates, or create nutrition plans based on a patient’s genetic profile and medical history. It’s such an exciting time for the nutrition industry as well.

SUSANNAH: Okay, Matt – thank you very much. We’re gonna dive now into some individualistic companies and see what their prospects are, given the disruption erupting right across the industry – and Sophie Lund-Yates is here. Sophie – first of all – this is an area where some of the tech giants are really dominating, isn’t it?

SOPHIE: Hi, Susannah – it certainly is. Google parent Alphabet bought Fitbit back in 2021 – I can’t say I have quite the same joy out of the idea of a Fitbit as maybe Matt does – but that’s just me – but these Smart’s and health-centred watches were really seen as a way for Alphabet to boost their footprint in devices. It’s well known that the Google brand is more associated with data and non-physical goods, but things like the Google Pixel phone and Chromebooks show the group’s keen to delve into the hardware action too.

The reality is that Fitbit doesn’t move the dial just yet for Alphabet – data for 2021 showed that about 10.6 million Fitbits were sold, and that generated revenue of around $1.2bn. I’m not for one second saying that’s a small amount of money – and it really highlights the growing demand for health-based tracking and fitness. Even 10 years ago, it would have seemed inconceivable that we’d have watches capable of tracking the intricate health and movement data Matt was just discussing, and it’s certainly a fast-moving industry. This is actually something that also makes it a potentially tough industry – especially now there are challenges like the Apple watch.

SARAH: So, there’s an expectation that wearable tech’s gonna keep growing, so how well positioned d’you think Alphabet is?

SOPHIE: It should play into Alphabet’s hands, really – especially when you consider their strong track record when it comes to culminating and understanding data. Things to watch out on that front would be attention from regulators as well as the ongoing risks and opportunities for Alphabet as a whole, rather than just Fitbit. The group’s been caught up in a wider tech rally since the start of the year with the valuation up 31.6% since January. A lot of this reflects the optimism from the market and the exciting ways Alphabet could benefit from the AI revolution but, at the same time, I can’t rule out the increased risk of volatility.

SUSANNAH: So, Sophie, data – as Matt was saying earlier – it’s clearly really interesting to watch in this space – but fitness science doesn’t just apply to data technology, does it?

SOPHIE: You’re absolutely right. Trainers are a leading beneficiary of the fitness revolution. The intricate science-based claims that go into marketing the latest footwear are a huge part of the selling cycle now. Claims of joint protection – making you run faster – and even ones that’ll say they help you tone your legs – it’s all out there. Wearing trainers is also no longer reserved for the gym or ultra-casual attire – they’re a staple for everything from a night out to the office, and such a seismic shift in wearability presents opportunities.

SUSANNAH: It makes sense to talk about sports apparel giant, Nike. The group had results out at the end of June which showed that earnings per share missed expectations – although revenue was better than predicted – and, as an idea of scale, the group’s full-year revenue was $51.2bn, so this brand truly is a giant.

SARAH: That is a massive brand, but they’re not immune to price rises, are they?

SOPHIE: Gross margins are coming under pressure because of higher input costs, and things like freight and logistics have become more expensive too. The group has to play a careful game where pricing’s concerned too – it can’t discount too much or the brand becomes damaged, but it also needs to ensure it’s stimulating enough buzz and transactions.

Ultimately, I think the sport science world and crossover with apparel is an exciting growth area – and one that Nike is primed to capitalise on – and so the valuation is likely to remain sensitive while it works through this difficult cost environment though.

SUSANNAH: So, Sophie, we’ve really focused on fitness, but how is this affecting the nutrition space as well?

SOPHIE: I’ve taken a look at Tate & Lyle. You may be wondering why I’m talking about a name that’s synonymous with Golden Syrup in an episode that’s meant to be about health and fitness, but the truth is Tate & Lyle doesn’t make that anymore.

It’s taken a far more specialised approach these days and is largely focused on science-based ingredients, many of which are focused on replicating textures and flavours while reducing fat and sugar content. According to the 2023 annual report, Tate & Lyle had 500 patents granted and 300 pending.

SARAH: That’s quite an impressing body of research, but how d’you see this market developing?

SOPHIE: When we look to the industry Tate & Lyle is tapping into, I think it’s really interesting. Consumers are fundamentally more health conscious now, and they want healthier options more and more. There are a lot of regulations that come with bringing the associated new ingredients to market – like enzymes and novel bioengineering – and that’s where it pays to be a cemented specialist in the area.

Looking at the wider operational performance, Tate & Lyle reported full-year revenue of nearly £1.8bn reflecting underlying growth of 18%. Higher prices were the key growth driver, and more than offsetting an 11% volume decline – the Food and Beverage solutions was the standout division there.

SUSANNAH: What about the other wider challenges they’re facing – like cost inflation, for example.

SOPHIE: Well, it has been offset to some extent by cost savings. Other challenges include Tate’s reliance on corn for a lot of its products – which are a key export for Ukraine – which means price volatility is a risk. We’re also seeing Tate’s volumes drop as it hikes its prices, which is a trend that should reverse, but it will need monitoring.

Overall, I’d say Tate & Lyle strategy is the right one, and progress is encouraging. The market’s failed to be excited by the stock in recent times, which I think makes this an interesting name. That said, the valuation downgrade also reflects the challenges that I’ve just mentioned.

SARAH: Thanks, Sophie – thanks very much – although I am really disappointed that we weren’t largely talking about Golden Syrup. So, we go from Golden Syrup – or lack of it – to a super-health – so we’ll bring in Duncan, who’s the Chief Product and Brand Officer for Wattbike. Duncan, can I get you to start by telling me a little bit about the bikes?

DUNCAN: Yeah – sure – Wattbike has been around – officially selling products – since around about 2008, and we were born of, really, at elite sport. The challenge there was actually, ‘How do you provide assessments, and tests, and structured training to elite athletes – and, particularly, British Cycling?’ – and Wattbike filled a gap there at the time – back in 1996 – and we started producing very accurate bikes that coaches could use to train their athletes – and, of course, if you’re an elite athlete, you’re looking for those last few percents of performance that might get you that personal best. We ended up producing a bike which was really accurate with data – it was super-robust – and it took off from there.

Got noticed by lots of other elite cyclists and elite sports, and we grew out from that into many other different sports, and running, and team sports – and rugby and football. So, it was where we started – those bikes were also really useful – not just for elite sports, but – at the other end of the spectrum – for health and fitness, and even rehab – and those same bikes got used and adopted by some of the really big health and fitness partners – and, from there, we’ve really grown out since then and now – moving forwards of where we are now – we have a range of bikes and some digital offerings going across both gyms and home-use.

SUSANNAH: So, a lot of the focus, Duncan – as you eluded to earlier – is about personalisation. What kinds of things are measured when someone uses their bike, and how d’you then use that data to, ultimately, improve their performance?

DUNCAN: You really start with the goals and motivations of our customers – whether they’re an elite athlete trying to win an event, or whether you’re simply trying to prepare for surgery, or simply get a bit fitter to keep up with your mates. We work back from there and build out your number of either tests to baseline you, and then build in a structured training programme – and, really, what the bike is doing is enabling that. It allows you to jump on a bike – it collects the data really accurately – helps people meet some of those training goals by feeding data into the plan.

SARAH: Knowing enough committed cyclists, I know how obsessed they get about these sorts of measurements and their improvements – but what about the broader market? Are people just as interested in tracking it with, then, maybe just want to get a bit fitter and not necessarily be super-fast on their bikes?

DUNCAN: Yeah – absolutely. Obviously – for Wattbike – coming from British Cycling and having such a strong allegiance to cycling – that’s where we started – but, certainly, over recent years and, through COVID, we’ve seen quite a big shift. All of the cycling customers are still there, but we’ve seen a much greater shift into people self-reporting – not as cyclists, but general health and fitness – but also getting on and actually getting a mental refresh by just jumping on a bike, and dealing with the stresses of higher mortgage rates and things like that. So, we’re seeing much more of a trend towards that in very recent times, which is really interesting because they are all really known benefits of exercising, and they’re not necessarily associated with winning a Olympic gold medal.

SUSANNAH: How does your app work with other cycling apps, and do you share data to improve performance of all the users of these kind of joint apps?

DUNCAN: Customers have the ability to share the data if they want to, but the point with sharing data is – obviously, you’re in the moment with the training itself, but very much what you do before and after is just as important – how you feed and hydrate – but also how you rest – and, as you’ve been mentioning, anything from step counters to nutrition – there are all sorts of apps in there.

So, to build up a holistic understanding of how you might maximise your training, you need to put a few other things in there as well, and that’s where I think integration with other apps really helps. It helps you to understand how your body’s performing, and context to the training – your lifestyle and your sleep – how they affect that – and that all really does help you meet your goals. I think that’s where the main benefit is, but our app does integrate with other systems – you mentioned Fitbit there, and heartrate belts and things like that – so you can definitely supplement your training with other information.

SARAH: I suppose – from a business perspective – presumably, there’s the option you can go down of providing absolutely everything and keeping this captive market all to yourself, and making as much money from everyone as possible, or integrating wider. Was there a reason why you went with the second choice and gave people a lot more choice about which particular products they could use with it?

DUNCAN: I think – if you’re one of the really big players like Apple – obviously, that’s a key strategic play – that they have a closed ecosystem. If you’re one of the smaller players, it makes much more sense to partner with other players, ‘cause the overall benefits are much greater than perhaps individually.

For us – we’ve always positioned ourselves as being a relatively open platform. You can use our bikes on things like Zwift and do cycling simulation – and so we do position ourselves as being relatively agnostic as we can be because we believe that people like the freedom – particularly around data – to understand their bodies a little bit more, but also to have freedom to move about and put whatever data they want in there.

It’s definitely a strategic direction for us – maybe if we were as big as Apple, we’d be slightly different – but, certainly, for the time being, we’re very open about how our platform integrates with other users.

SUSANNAH: Duncan, we’ve talked before on this podcast – with Sarah and other guests – about the excitement that AI could bring for every corner of our lives. How d’you see AI developing within your business?

DUNCAN: In my career, it’s been around for quite a long time – and, on the face of it, you can see why because – as we're kind of talking here – our bodies – how they work – are really complicated, and then we ask them to do lots of different things, and we try to achieve different things with them, and then we’ve got the context of what happens in our lives – in our sleep – and stress and things like that – so they’re incredibly difficult things to understand. So, AI and machine learning is brilliant at understanding patterns and working out what to do next, and I think – for me – that’s really the key to where this goes next.

I think everybody wants to understand themselves and how they can improve themselves, but I think – certainly, for AI – there’s lots of work going on – and has gone on – around using AI to understand the history of data – or analysis of data – but I think where we’ve gotta move to is actually better informing what to do next and – making that very accessible in simplistic terms – it’s got to be very integrated in life – it can’t be lots of metrics thrown at you.

We’re really interested in using AI and predicting and getting more personalised with data to help people reach their goals, but with one eye on that not everyone’s an elite athlete in a really controlled environment with a coach. Actually, lots of things happen in your life – get stuck in traffic – you missed your training session – or you don’t sleep quite so well – or you really fancied that piece of cake. Those are real-life challenges – so that’s where we see things going – is actually helping AI and predictive machine learning to be more specific to individuals, but in the context of real-life events.

SUSANNAH: Where do you see your business going from here – just how excited are you about what’s ahead?

DUNCAN: Our business is growing – as mentioned earlier – from cycling through into general health and fitness – rehab and mental. We really see that as a growth industry. We’re also focusing – unsurprisingly – on more the digital side of things as well because we spent a lot of time developing a bike – and we’re really proud of it. It’s the enabler, but we’ve gotta drive up the engagement and the accessibility of what the bikes can do and, really, it’s the digital that does that both through all of the AI in the background, but also the design and accessibility of it, and how it integrates with people’s lives. We definitely see digital as the way forward, but it’s there to drive up engagement and really allow people to access what sits behind the app, and the data – the AI – and what the bikes are capable of doing.

SUSANNAH: Fantastic – Duncan, thank you so much for joining us – it’s been really fascinating hearing all of the developments and what could still be to come.

DUNCAN: Thank you very much.

SUSANNAH: And now it’s time to get a Fund Manager’s view on what could be ahead. Here’s Emma Wall – our Head of Investment Analysis and Research.

EMMA: Hello – I’m speaking to Praveen Kumar – Manager of the Baillie Gifford Shin Nippon Trust.

Hello, there, Praveen.

PRAVEEN: Hi, Emma.

EMMA: So, we’re talking about healthcare – and I think it’s really interesting in particular to think about the future of healthcare. Something which the Japanese healthcare companies – and medical companies – are at the forefront of, aren’t they?

PRAVEEN: That’s right. As you know, Japan is the world’s most rapidly aging economy, and what that means is – with a population that’s aging as rapidly as you see in Japan – you do need the provision of quite a wide range of healthcare services and – along with the aging of the population – we’re also seeing a shrinkage in the labour force in Japan, and what that also means is you can’t really apply conventional solutions and solve healthcare issues – so we’re seeing quite a few Japanese companies come up with creative solutions to work around these two long-term structural problems – or headwinds – that Japan faces.

EMMA: I’ve gotta ask, then – what are the creative ways that people are finding work worms? Are we talking about robots?

PRAVEEN: Partially, yes – so robots – obviously, automating various aspects of healthcare, whether it’s robotic surgery – whether it’s the use of what we call as ‘Exoskeletons’ that people can wear almost as an external suit, and then the way the suit is structured means that it allows an individual to lift quite heavy loads. So, basically, you’re able to lift a patient – an immobile patient – from their beds and take them to wherever they’re supposed to be – but, alongside that, we’re seeing quite a lot of companies come up with solutions that are to do with using healthcare data in a lot more impactful ways.

So, simple example will be to consolidate the various databases – the various sources of data – which contains things like insurance data – prescription drug data – and get all of that in a centralised system, and make it very easy and quick for the users of this data – i.e. your doctors, your GPs, your surgeons – giving them quick access to this data – so that sort of provision of healthcare data is another area where we’re seeing a lot of innovation in Japan.

EMMA: How much is that data being just kept within the providers of healthcare, and how much of it is being shared? The reason I ask that is ‘cause, in other parts of Asia, we’ve started to see health data being provided to insurers, for example, to help influence the cost of your premiums – or is this purely about delivering the best possible healthcare in an efficient way?

PRAVEEN: I think that’s a good point – so it’s, basically, both. So, the first point that you mentioned about sharing patient healthcare data, which can then be used by people like insurance companies, for instance, to price insurance policies for customers – so we are seeing a lot of that happen in Japan – but, alongside that, we’re also seeing the provision of data – a more creative use of data in terms of providing preventative care – so there are loads of companies – especially at the smaller end of the market gap spectrum – that are, in some cases, using artificial intelligence-type technologies to, not just gather this huge amount of data, but also interpreting this data.

I think the second – with the interpretation bit – understanding what this data actually means – is the holy grail because there’s not a lot of companies across the world that have been able to do that quite successfully on a very large scale.

EMMA: Okay – so we’ve talked about the creative ways that people are using data – AI, robotics, and technology to improve healthcare provision – what about some companies that – in your view – are doing this well?

PRAVEEN: One of the companies that we own in Shin Nippon – it’s called ‘M3.’ This company started off by providing an online platform for marketing drugs. So, traditional model would be to hire an army of medical representatives who go around each clinic and try and sell particular companies drugs.

M3, basically, came out with its online model that did away with this massive swathe of costs, and they ended up having the largest database of, not just drugs, but even the doctors who had signed up to M3’s platform was able to get quite a treasure trove of data from the doctors in terms of the patients they were treating – the kind of conditions that they were treating – the medication that the patients were getting – and, very cleverly, they use that data to branch into a number of adjacent areas – helping drug companies with clinical trials. So, when you do a clinical trial, you obviously need patients and – by having access to this data of doctors and the patients – M3 was able to significantly accelerate the patient recruitment process.

EMMA: What are the threats to a company like that? – because, as we all know, with investing, nothing is guaranteed.

RAVEEN: That’s right – the obvious threat would be if M3 were to deviate from its core purpose and its core competitive advantage. Its core strength lies in how well it can use its considerable database, and the risk with that would be if management decide to branch into an area where they have questionable competitive edge which is not related to their core. So, that – in my view – is likely to be the key challenge for management over the next 10-odd years.

EMMA: Praveen, thank you very much.

PRAVEEN: Thank you, Emma.

EMMA: That was Praveen Kumar – Manager of the Baillie Gifford Shin Nippon Trust – on 3 August 2023.

SUSANNAH: That was Emma Wall – our Head of Investment Analysis and Research – and please bear in mind that was the view of the Fund Manager in that interview and are not individual stock recommendations.

SARAH: You’re listening to Switch Your Money On from Hargreaves Lansdown, and now it’s time for ‘Stat of the Week.’

SUSANNAH: It certainly is – and we’re gonna go back to steps. So, most fitness trackers come with a default of 10,000 steps, but how close do we get? How many steps do you think we do on an average day? – so that’s the average person on an average day, Sarah.

SARAH: I was gonna say, not we do on an average day – obviously, with all the running around after other people we do. I mean, definitely, mine will depend on just how many chores I’ve got going on. I’m gonna be optimistic – I’m gonna say, ‘Oh, we all do 10,000 steps.’

SUSANNAH: Sadly not – apparently, it’s somewhere between three and four thousand, but – d’you know what – I always do way over that. I think people just can’t live in a townhouse with teenagers – I am constantly up and down those stairs.

SARAH: Oh, gosh – yes! I have to say, I’m a huge fan of leaving things in piles on the stairs for everyone just to walk past and ignore for a week – before I take them up, anyway. This is the fun of parenting teens – it just never ends.

SUSANNAH: It certainly doesn’t – and I know, at the bottom of my stairs – on the landing – there is a huge pile of stuff that I – also, Sarah – will inevitably be the one who takes up there. I think we need to go on strike, but not on this podcast, of course.

Before we go, we do need to remind you that this was recorded on 19 July 2023, and all information was correct at the time of recording.

SARAH: Nothing in this podcast is personal advice – you should seek advice if you’re not sure what’s right for you. Unlike the security offered by cash, investments rise and fall in value, so you could get back less than you invest.

SUSANNAH: Yes – this is not advice or a recommendation to buy, sell, or hold any investment. No view is given on the present or future value or price of any investment, and investors should form their own view on any proposed investment.

SARAH: And this hasn’t been prepared in accordance with legal requirements designed to promote the independence of investment research and is considered a marketing communication.

SUSANNAH: Non-independent research is not subject to FCA rules prohibiting dealing ahead of research. However, HL has put controls in place – including dealing restrictions, physical and information barriers – to manage potential conflicts of interest presented by such dealing.

SARAH: You can see our full non-independent research disclosure on our website for more information.

So, all that’s left is me to thank Matt, Sophie, Emma, our guests, and our producer, Elizabeth Hotson.

SUSANNAH: Thank you so much for listening – we’ll be back again soon – goodbye.